During class one day, we were talking about Jewel and how we found out he was an illegitimate love child. Br Tom guided us to the connection that Jewel is similar to Pearl in the Scarlett Letter. I was kind of looking to see why this was a common theme. Did he purposly allude to the Scarlett Letter, or was it a common theme in the 1930's? Then I started looking for other common connections between Scarlett Letter and As I Lay Dying to see if it was common at all. Did anyone else see any? Thoughts, please. - kco-c
I don't think that there is a direct reference to the Scarlett Letter, but there is a slight connection in common themes. One of the biggest themes of the Scarlet Letter was of course sin and adultery. As we know, Addie and Whitfield committed adultery as well. Further, just like Hester in the Scarlet Letter, Addie has relations with a person of religious status. Both Dimesdale and Whitfield feel the need to confess their sin, though the two go about it in very different ways. Dimesdale shows courage when he confesses to a group of people about the affair and then dies after having so. However, Whitfield never truly confesses. Further, I think that this particular theme is used by authors to show that human beings are prone to sin no matter how religious they may appear. Ultimaltly though, the two novels do not have very many connections as they were written for two different purposes. - KSm-c Feb 28, 2008
I don't think the novels are neccarily connected, but I do think this incidence is. I mean, the illegitmate fathers are both ministers, the child's name has something to do with valuables/treasure and the father never confesses. Yes, I know that Dimesdale "confessed" to the congregation, but they didn't understand it as a confession and Dimesdale did nothing to clear up their confusion. He was a pansy about it. ANYWAY, I think this definately was an allusion to Scarlett Letter and almost like Faulkner tipping his hat to Hawthorne. I don't see any deeper meaning. But maybe there is... is there some other reason why Faulkner would make this allusion to Scarlet Letter? - adi-c Feb 28, 2008
Faulker doesn't seem to have many virtuous characters in As I Lay Dying; many times, his characters have many negative qualities, and Witfield is not different. As KSm said, Witfield goes about confessing their adulterous behavior in very different ways. I think that Faulkner had a negative perception on the clergy based on the way he presents Witfield. I mean, there has to be a deeper meaning behind Witfield's chapter because the information in it either we already knew from Addie or it doesn't advance the plot in any way. Because he is relieved when he finds that he will not have to tell Anse the truth b/c he is not as home, it shows that he is a hypocrite who would rather live a lie than confess his sins. He thinks it's okay because it's "the thought that counts," but really, his intention doesn't count for anything. - lma-c Feb 28, 2008
I think Faulkner would allude to Scarlet Letter because of the main theme of true love vs. loveless marriage. Both Addie and Hester hated their husbands, and truly loved the man with whom they had an affair. Thus, the children that resulted from their affairs were their most precious "possession" (not that children are a possession, but I couldn't think of the right word). I don't know if Faulkner was necessarily tipping his hat to Scarlet Letter, or if it was just a 'coincidence', since it is impossible to have an "original" story anymore (as discussed in other forums). Do you think Faulkner is necessarily alluding to Scarlet Letter, or do they just have a common theme? - mmi-c Feb 28, 2008
I agree; I saw common themes in As I Lay Dying that were in the Scarlet Letter. Not only do the two have children who are named after something precious; [maybe because they are more important to their mothers?] but it also involves a woman cheating on her husband with a religious figure. It seems that Addie was cheating more blatantly, because she was still actively married to her husband. On the other hand, Addie's affair was kept secret, whereas Hester's was publicly known. But I think that the main similiarity between the two is that it shows no one is perfect--priests and ministers are no better than other people, they sin just the same as everyone else. Is this possibly a satirical comment on the religious? - dru-c Feb 28, 2008
Well Dru, I'm not sure if Falkner's purpose was to make satirical comments on religion, but I agree that that is evident in both works. I mean the priests and ministers are the ones that are like confess and repent and Jesus shall forgive your sins, but in these two works, they are the ones hiding their sins. Seriously, the women are the ones that have been scorned, while the men have been hiding in the shadows with their sins. I believe it does reveal the hypocritic nature of people though and many people's general selfishness. Whitefield took no responsiblity for his actions so that he wouldn't get in trouble and be humiliated. Anyone else have a comment on the topic if Faulkner is making a satirical comment on religion? - kva-c Feb 28, 2008
Okay, well from what I remember from when I read The Scarlet Letter, Pearl did not quite know about what was going on, or why her mother was an outcast. And from our current reading, does Jewel know? I recall Darl telling Vardaman to ask Jewel who his father was, and then Jewel getting upset, so does that mean he does? Does the whole family know? Because if it was more public, I would see how the relation to TSL is more obvious and more valid. But it's not like Addie was the talk of the town, or at least as far as the reader can tell. So coming up practically empty-handed on that front, I'd like to remark upon mmi's input. That was a good point about them hating their husbands, but do we know whether Addie really loved Whitfield? - Sha-c Feb 28, 2008
Yeah, no kidding! As soon as I read that the minister was the one having the affair, I thought SCARLET LETTER all over. It's really got a lot of the underlying events, but they do really focus on completely different aspects of sin, and the novels aren't similar at all except for a few chance coincidences in events. I'm not sure he did it on purpose, but it shows that he was trying to get out at least one message that was similar to that of the author of SL, what that message might be I'm not sure myself, but hey, there you go. Um, perhaps that ministers aren't necessarily pure, which underscores that people are not always what they appear to be, which is definitely an important part of the story. Also, children and their parents are tied to their origins, and the child of sin might actually be very precious to the mother, despite her hate of the sin itself. Thus love transcends this evil, and that I guess is something that both might have wanted to underscore - the love of an imperfect mother. - AZU-C Feb 28, 2008
I totally saw a connection between the two. When I saw Whitfield's name on the top of the section after Addie's, my mind went straight to "another affair with a religious person." I think it is almost Faulkner like tipping his hat to the scarlett letter. And, that connection between Pearl being a prized possession of Hester and Jewel being a prized possession of Addie totally fit in. I mean, Pearl and Jewel: it sounds like we are searching for treasure. They both have names of worth, just like Cash, but they both were illegitimate children. They were both a little strange, but they had different types of fathers. I think that if we would have read Scarlett Letter right before As I Lay Dying I would have seen the difference between Whitfield and Dimesdale immediately, but I missed it until I read above posts. Dimesdale was honest about what happened; he was a well standing citizen and admitted to his mistakes in front of a congregation. Whitfield was almost honest and almost admitted...but fell short.- MFi-c Feb 28, 2008
I don't think that there is a direct reference to the Scarlett Letter, but there is a slight connection in common themes. One of the biggest themes of the Scarlet Letter was of course sin and adultery. As we know, Addie and Whitfield committed adultery as well. Further, just like Hester in the Scarlet Letter, Addie has relations with a person of religious status. Both Dimesdale and Whitfield feel the need to confess their sin, though the two go about it in very different ways. Dimesdale shows courage when he confesses to a group of people about the affair and then dies after having so. However, Whitfield never truly confesses. Further, I think that this particular theme is used by authors to show that human beings are prone to sin no matter how religious they may appear. Ultimaltly though, the two novels do not have very many connections as they were written for two different purposes.
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I don't think the novels are neccarily connected, but I do think this incidence is. I mean, the illegitmate fathers are both ministers, the child's name has something to do with valuables/treasure and the father never confesses. Yes, I know that Dimesdale "confessed" to the congregation, but they didn't understand it as a confession and Dimesdale did nothing to clear up their confusion. He was a pansy about it. ANYWAY, I think this definately was an allusion to Scarlett Letter and almost like Faulkner tipping his hat to Hawthorne. I don't see any deeper meaning. But maybe there is... is there some other reason why Faulkner would make this allusion to Scarlet Letter?
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Faulker doesn't seem to have many virtuous characters in As I Lay Dying; many times, his characters have many negative qualities, and Witfield is not different. As KSm said, Witfield goes about confessing their adulterous behavior in very different ways. I think that Faulkner had a negative perception on the clergy based on the way he presents Witfield. I mean, there has to be a deeper meaning behind Witfield's chapter because the information in it either we already knew from Addie or it doesn't advance the plot in any way. Because he is relieved when he finds that he will not have to tell Anse the truth b/c he is not as home, it shows that he is a hypocrite who would rather live a lie than confess his sins. He thinks it's okay because it's "the thought that counts," but really, his intention doesn't count for anything. -
I think Faulkner would allude to Scarlet Letter because of the main theme of true love vs. loveless marriage. Both Addie and Hester hated their husbands, and truly loved the man with whom they had an affair. Thus, the children that resulted from their affairs were their most precious "possession" (not that children are a possession, but I couldn't think of the right word). I don't know if Faulkner was necessarily tipping his hat to Scarlet Letter, or if it was just a 'coincidence', since it is impossible to have an "original" story anymore (as discussed in other forums). Do you think Faulkner is necessarily alluding to Scarlet Letter, or do they just have a common theme? -
I agree; I saw common themes in As I Lay Dying that were in the Scarlet Letter. Not only do the two have children who are named after something precious; [maybe because they are more important to their mothers?] but it also involves a woman cheating on her husband with a religious figure. It seems that Addie was cheating more blatantly, because she was still actively married to her husband. On the other hand, Addie's affair was kept secret, whereas Hester's was publicly known. But I think that the main similiarity between the two is that it shows no one is perfect--priests and ministers are no better than other people, they sin just the same as everyone else. Is this possibly a satirical comment on the religious? -
Well Dru, I'm not sure if Falkner's purpose was to make satirical comments on religion, but I agree that that is evident in both works. I mean the priests and ministers are the ones that are like confess and repent and Jesus shall forgive your sins, but in these two works, they are the ones hiding their sins. Seriously, the women are the ones that have been scorned, while the men have been hiding in the shadows with their sins. I believe it does reveal the hypocritic nature of people though and many people's general selfishness. Whitefield took no responsiblity for his actions so that he wouldn't get in trouble and be humiliated. Anyone else have a comment on the topic if Faulkner is making a satirical comment on religion?
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Okay, well from what I remember from when I read The Scarlet Letter, Pearl did not quite know about what was going on, or why her mother was an outcast. And from our current reading, does Jewel know? I recall Darl telling Vardaman to ask Jewel who his father was, and then Jewel getting upset, so does that mean he does? Does the whole family know? Because if it was more public, I would see how the relation to TSL is more obvious and more valid. But it's not like Addie was the talk of the town, or at least as far as the reader can tell. So coming up practically empty-handed on that front, I'd like to remark upon mmi's input. That was a good point about them hating their husbands, but do we know whether Addie really loved Whitfield? -
Yeah, no kidding! As soon as I read that the minister was the one having the affair, I thought SCARLET LETTER all over. It's really got a lot of the underlying events, but they do really focus on completely different aspects of sin, and the novels aren't similar at all except for a few chance coincidences in events. I'm not sure he did it on purpose, but it shows that he was trying to get out at least one message that was similar to that of the author of SL, what that message might be I'm not sure myself, but hey, there you go. Um, perhaps that ministers aren't necessarily pure, which underscores that people are not always what they appear to be, which is definitely an important part of the story. Also, children and their parents are tied to their origins, and the child of sin might actually be very precious to the mother, despite her hate of the sin itself. Thus love transcends this evil, and that I guess is something that both might have wanted to underscore - the love of an imperfect mother. -
I totally saw a connection between the two. When I saw Whitfield's name on the top of the section after Addie's, my mind went straight to "another affair with a religious person." I think it is almost Faulkner like tipping his hat to the scarlett letter. And, that connection between Pearl being a prized possession of Hester and Jewel being a prized possession of Addie totally fit in. I mean, Pearl and Jewel: it sounds like we are searching for treasure. They both have names of worth, just like Cash, but they both were illegitimate children. They were both a little strange, but they had different types of fathers. I think that if we would have read Scarlett Letter right before As I Lay Dying I would have seen the difference between Whitfield and Dimesdale immediately, but I missed it until I read above posts. Dimesdale was honest about what happened; he was a well standing citizen and admitted to his mistakes in front of a congregation. Whitfield was almost honest and almost admitted...but fell short.-